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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Oct - 19:26 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

Due to the extreme hostility between orcish and human/elven/dwarven cultures, should I make an event so that after say a few months, orcish and Sauron rulers get the choice to populate it with orcs? Orcs would always say yes, and Sauron would have the option to keep men them around if they convert to cult_of_melkor (elves and dwarvish provinces should only have like 1% chance of this, however, with men being maybe 5% if of dunedain culture group, 20% for free folk of the west, and 30% for easterner/southerner groups?).

Men/dwarves/elves/hobbits/etc would get no choice to keep the orcish culture in their provinces, since it's kind of unrealistic to expect orcs to submit to rulership from the good side and be decent tax paying citizens.

What do you think?

Edit: For wilderness provinces, we can do a colonizatin thing that is decision-driven: Colonize wilderness to your own culture/religion, but it should cost quite a lot (500 gold? 250? )
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 10:54 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

I was thinking about a different event. If orks/goblins/uruks conquer a human/elvish/dwarvish province (and viceversa), all the courtiers of the previous culture get imprisoned. Would it be possible? It doesn't seem hard to code.
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Nukumnehtar
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 15:59 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

I would say either imprisoned as slaves or death. Orcs did use Men Elves and Dwarves as slaves, after all.
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 16:32 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

We could look at the Game of Thrones mod events for that... IIRC, when the enemy approaches a castle you have the option to send your family away, or to keep them in your castle.

But you would definitely have advance warning of an approaching orc army, so to some extent, the vanilla mechanics for courtiers are fine for "non-critical" courtiers where they just tend to flee to a friendly court automatically.

The event chain for slavery or imprisonment would be quite complicated to script however, cause we would also have to make some kind of rescue mechanics when you then take the orc province where your family is held prisoner.

But don't you guys agree that if Sauron took over large parts of the West, he would populate large parts of it with orcs? That is, unless they switched to the dark side, which we would by necessity have to call Melkor Cult religion since that it was Sauron has. Or make a new religion called "Servants of Sauron" for enslaved human/elf/dwarf/hobbit populations if the cult of melkor is inaccurate? The religion change is needed for the event, at least, otherwise the orc colonization one would keep firing over and over again if we don't set a certain religion as a limit.
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 16:37 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

I agree with blood about this. I think we need a unique Evil religion (at least in war of the ring scenario). That would make events and other mechanics (like evil/good sides) easier  to write. That would reduce the risk of wars between evil faction too! But I think we have to persuade Nuku to have something like this in game   Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 16:42 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

Yes Smile I can see the argument from the lore-side, but a single religion that represents allegiance to Sauron would make scripting events and provincial changes much, much easier. It would also make it easier for a Easterling and Southron event-coding, because then they can also choose whether to serve Sauron, or remain independent as based on their religion.

The argument for making this religion simply "Cult of Melkor" instead of a new "Servants of Sauron" is that then they will help each other in religious wars, and we already have the Casus Belli mechanics for that.
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 16:45 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

I support your arguments  Okay Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 16:49 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

Great  Okay

For the evil/good side, we can then also do the multiple trait thing.

If someone has "Servant of Sauron" trait (which we can script to be given automatically to non-maia characters that have the religion Cult of Melkor) then they get opinion bonuses with others who have that trait.

Elves get opinion bonuses with other elves, dwarves with other dwarves, and elves/humans also get opinion bonuses if someone has Blood_of_numenor1 or Blood_of_numenor2 (or even Heir_of_isildur) which should give good relations between Gondor and Arnor and the elven realms.

It's not as far-reaching as a single good/evil trait, but it could be a work-around at least and might be a lot easier to implement.

Most non-Dunedain humans (with the exception of the Bardings) also generally don't have super-relations with elves or dwarves... so we couuuld also make a single "Lord of Dale" trait to those who have the title K_Dale AND culture_barding which gives opinion bonuses towards those with elf or dwarf traits? Then we'd pretty much have all the elf-friend humans covered.
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 16:57 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

"Servant of Sauron" trait, as described by you, would have the same usefulness of "Forces of Evil" trait created by me.
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 17:10 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

Exactly, but I used the "Servant of Sauron" name because I think the trait adding event should also only fire if Sauron is alive. If Sauron is dead, it is less likely that the evil side will stop fighting each other and focusing on the West. We can also call it forces of evil, as you say, it would have the exact same gameplay effect.
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 20:28 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

I see your point. But i think that evil populations should have a malus in relations with free peoples, even if Sauron dies. This is what I have in my mind:
If Sauron is alive:
"Servants of Sauron" trait = Malus in relations with Free Peoples-Bonus in relations with other Servant of Sauron
When Sauron dies:
Servants of Sauron trait removed, replaced by "Forces of Evil" trait = Malus in relations with Free Peoples-Very little bonus in relations with other evil people
One of the prerequisites of these traits/events is obviously the presence of the unique melkor religion we were talking about  Okay
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 20:35 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

Works for me!  Okay

After all, even if Sauron dies, the men of the south and east have been influenced by him to fear/hate the elves/dwarves/numenoreans for centuries, if not millenia.

And we can also just keep the current Cult of Melkor religion and give it to his followers - but maybe make a is_ruler = yes  / is_independent = yes in the event also so that the other religions are still represented in-game by the courtiers and lesser vassals. The important thing is that the independent evil rulers have a chance to submit to Sauron, as they are the ones using the CB's and count for relations vs other sates.

Or else make a new religion, but if we make a new one, we have to also make sure that Sauron gets that one too, otherwise we are back to square one with Casus Belli dynamics.
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 20:42 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

Okay
We have to talk to Nuku about this  Mr. Green
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Nukumnehtar
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 23:00 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

Just so you know, the Melkor religion was in no way intended for Haradrim or Easterling, but for those Maiar who served Sauron and the Numenorians who followed Sauron on Numenor to openly worship Melkor. It can also be given to the Black Numenorians such as the Mouth of Sauron that are direct servants of Sauron, but the Haradrim and Easterlings were independent of Sauron, and only were allied to him, not directly serving him (like the Dunlendings were to Saruman). Therefore they should retain their own distinct religions. Furthermore the Haradrim and Easterlings even allied to Sauron should not necessarily be grouped under the forces of evil, but instead have their own third trait such as 'Wildmen' or the like that shows their loyalties only lie with themselves and then have the option to either choose or be forced to choose (if lost in a war against Sauron) who their allies are. I think this would make it more dynamic, because it would greatly alter gameplay if both sides had to compete to gain the 'Wildmen' to their side. (i.e. the Oathbreakers siding with Isildur, the Northmen, Eotheod and Rohirrim with Gondor, etc.). I think it would create much more of an ebb and flow of the game and become a crucial gameplay strategy. So say the Good side like Gondor would mostly have to focus on diplomacy tactics in order to win the 'Wildmen' to their side, while Sauron would use tactics of force, violence and bribery in order to gain allies.
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct - 23:30 (2013)    Post subject: Province Cultural Conversions Reply with quote

I don't disagree with you Nuku, what you say makes sense, but the problem is that we don't have any expert event-makers on our team who can make the mod game-play as you suggest. I think it would be great if we could make the Haradrim and Black Numenorean and Easterling religious groups act as only allied to Sauron but not necessarily worshipping Melkor, but I have no idea how to script that and I don't think anyone else currently active on the team does either.

Making independent rulers of the Southrons and Easterlings "Cult of Melkor" religion by event (maybe 80% chance for AI) is something we can do right now pretty easily and it would greatly enhance the current version of the mod since then they would all help each other with the religious war CBs. Since it is only independent rulers, it would reflect the fact that it's a small cult of Sauron inner-circle loyalists who were told about Melkor, and not a wide-spread religion per se.

If we decide to try and do it a 3rd way, it would mean that we can't release even a some-what playable version of the mod until we get that expert event/script/CB modder onboard... as it is right now, Mordor is just as likely to attack Harad as Gondor, and vice versa (in fact, Harad is more likely to attack Mordor than Gondor, since it has a land border with Mordor). Having them the same religion would be an easy fix to this issue.

I say that until we get that expert event/CB modder on our team, for now, we go with the less-than-perfect option and use "Cult of Melkor" religion to simulate those rulers who follow Sauron. We can always change it in later builds if we find a way or get someone onboard who knows how to do it.

Edit: And who is to say actually, that if Sauron were to win, he would not institute a mass "Cult of Melkor" in the 4th Age where he is the Heir of the original Dark Lord. The Cult of Melkor would of course in FACT be the Cult of Sauron, where he would pull all the strings, since Morgoth is kept well away from the affairs of the world. It would add an element of fear to the Western Kingdoms as well, as they would have to defeat Sauron somehow before the entire East unites under one religion/ruler Twisted Evil
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