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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Tue 5 Nov - 19:00 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Yes, it should be -100, thanks!


And yeah, i tryed to adapt at first the vanilla conversion events, but finally, i made my own.
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PostPosted: Tue 5 Nov - 19:00 (2013)    Post subject: Publicité

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Tue 5 Nov - 19:48 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Just looking at the "Decisions" folder - I think we can safely delete the conversion_decision.txt for the next build, it doesn't apply to this mod.

By the way do we agree that for non-orc rulers, they get to clear a province of Orcs for 100 gold UNLESS they are from the Cult_of_Melkor religion (or later, have the evil side/Servant of Sauron trait?)

And for Sauron/culture_group_melkor, they offer a choice: Either convert the province to cult_of_melkor (very small chance for dunedain, dwarves, elves) or else get replaced by orcs?

I know Nuku was against the cult_of_melkor spreading, but in terms of gameplay, I don't think there's a good way around it. Until we get an expert event modder onboard, we have to work with what we can do, not with what we would wish we could do.

Edit: Point being we need some kind of cultural change mechanism when Sauron takes over, otherwise he will have 15,000 fully armed Gondorian Dunedain on his side if he conquers Gondor - which should never be allowed to happen. We can also just make Sauron replace all "western" cultures with orcs, if that works better and leave out the option to convert and serve Sauron.
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Tue 5 Nov - 22:45 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Oh, and as for the decision itself posted before:

I tried as Bree, and this part:

potential = {
location = {
owner = { character = ROOT }
religion = religion_wilderness
culture = culture_wilderness
}

seems to only make the decision show up when Barliman himself is in the conquered province.  Does it work for you even when he is not? In my test, the  event also needs a "is_triggered_only = yes", otherwise it keeps firing.

I got a modified version working using a variation of "any_realm_province" instead of location, but now the problem is that if you have two wilderness provinces, they both get colonized for the price of one Confused Will keep working on it, unless you confirm that it's 100% working on your end, even when the ruler is not in the province.

Here's what I have so far:

option = {
name = "colonisation0opt1" #Let's go!
any_realm_province = {
limit = {
culture = culture_wilderness
religion = religion_wilderness
}
culture = ROOT
if = {
limit = {
NOT = { religion = ROOT }
}
religion = ROOT
}
}
wealth = -200
prestige = -100
}

Edit:

This should work now, with random_realm_province instead of any:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nggrh3

Re-Edit: Tested it, works as designed for me at least.
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Sun 8 Dec - 11:05 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Blood, do you think we can make some other events for the colonisation chain? I mean, for exemple, the possibility for the "colons" to be attacked by wolves/trolls or to have a disaster (fire in the settlement, famine or desease), and then, have a chance to fail to colonize the land?
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Sun 8 Dec - 16:52 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

I'll take a look at it once I'm done with the Sauron and Oath or Eorl events  Okay
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Sun 8 Dec - 20:01 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

I copy it from the 0.3 alpha topic

-Independent counts shouldn't be allowed to use "Wilderness conquest casus belli", or after some years you'll see big territories under a unique count. Also Druedain shouldn't be allowed to use it
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Mon 9 Dec - 10:06 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Personally I don't see a problem with how southern Eriador develops - if it was a middle of the 3rd age scenario, yes, we should restrict it, but this is the beginning of the 4th Age when men pretty much take over. So having southern Eriador being colonized by the local counts is only a good thing, isn't it? Otherwise it'd end up always being Dunlendish, Rohirrim, or even worse - Dunedain.

Shouldn't we wait and see what happens once we give Aragorn his vassal Dunedain provinces? I imagine that AI Aragorn will expand into Arthedain pretty fast and eventually colonize it with Dunedain, but it'd be nice if at that point southern Eriador is also held by non-wilderness characters so that the new Kingdom of the North has some more culture groups and Dunedain are still mostly concentrated in the Northern parts.
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Mon 9 Dec - 10:31 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Ok, I see your point. But I'm still sure that Druedain shouldn't be allowed to use it. They're not a conquerers people. They would never leave theyr forests!
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Mon 9 Dec - 10:35 (2013)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Yeah, i don't see any problem to have some dunlendings/breelander/hillmen/fisherfolk who conquered some lands in Eriador, and in my medium-long time tests, it wasn't a big deal, a lot of counties stay independant wilderness.


Ok for druedain, they shouldn't extend! Okay
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Sun 2 Feb - 22:27 (2014)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

I noticed that in the wilderness_events you have put
mean_time_to_happen = {
days = 1
}
But since these events are:
is_triggered_only = yes


the mean_time is useless and should be removed, see here:
Like with the trigger, mean_time_to_happen has to be defined for any event that isn't is_triggered_only
http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Event_modding#Mean_Time_to_Happen
Okay
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Sun 2 Feb - 22:28 (2014)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Yeah, will remove them, thanks  Okay
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Sun 9 Feb - 05:12 (2014)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Keynes has offered to overhaul our colonisation system, and I think he's got a really really good idea to make it happen via buildings. Here is his PM from the Paradox forums:

The other forum is acting up for me again so I thought I'd just give you my thoughts here.

You said you wanted a mechanic whereby the player could change the culture of a province. I would suggest the way to do that would be through colony buildings. The buildings would build quickly and when present would trigger event chains that produce county culture shifts.

So there if a default culture for any given county that shows what is easiest but if the player wants something different they can buy a province change through the buildings. The buildings would have variable costs depending on the cultures, orcs would cost very little to spread to a county while elves would be very expensive indeed. A character wouldn't be restricted to just one culture's colony, some options are available based on good/evil, some on regions but your own culture (unless Istari) is always available.

The AI would generally be instructed not to build colony buildings but would build their own cultures colony if they are in wilderness or hostile culture. That way the player can delegate the colonization of newly taken territory.

The "historical" culture of a province would always be available for free through the wilderness colonization process, this is an option to pay extra to change to something more favorable.

If this sounds good I could do it in a few days, after I sort out some computer issues.
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PostPosted: Sun 9 Feb - 05:21 (2014)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Here is my reply:

Wow, yes, that sounds brilliant - doing it via buildings!

Here are some suggestions for default cultures in Eriador:

IF you are a human (any human), you would tend to colonize with the "historical" culture, since even if it's wilderness, there will still be scattered settlements that can be developed. Ie,

Angmar: Hillsmen

Arthedain: Arnorian
-except for Breeland: Breelander

Cardolan (Dividied by Duchies)
-Girithlin: Druwaithing (which is fisher folk, along the coasts)
-Minhiriath: Druwaithing
-Saralain: Druwaithing
-Dol Caladir: Arnorian
-Tharbad: Arnorian
-Dol Tinereb: Arnorian
(I suggest we also make the current Dunlending and Woodsmen provinces in Cardolan pure wilderness, so the culture map looks "neater" when colonised)

Rhudaur:
-Eredoriath: Arnorian
-The rest: Hillsmen

 Enedwaith:
-Dunlending

Eregion:
-Dunlending

For the other kingdoms in case orcs genocide them and turn them into wilderness, the human-run AI would by default colonize with the historical culture also. IE, Rohirrim in Rohan, Haradrim in Harad, Beornings in Anduin Vale, etc.

For the other races, they would colonize with their own culture by default (but if we can give players the choice to build other types of "historical human for the area" buildings at a lower cost, then of course that's perfectly fine!). Definitely agree here, as you say:  A character wouldn't be restricted to just one culture's colony, some options are available based on good/evil, some on regions but your own culture (unless Istari) is always available. So it will be on a case-by-case basis, and we can of course discuss the specifics of who can do what within realistic boundaries. Orcs or Istari/Maiar (Saruman/Sauron) obviously cannot colonise with elves, dwarves, or Dunedain.

As for the buildings themselves, I suggest that the first building as you also note be built very quickly (90 days?) and then the culture changes instantly BUT it has a -90% "sparsely populated" modifier attached to it for levy size, levy reinforcement, and income. Then the level 2 building removes that modifier, and replaces it with a -50% penalty for "developing colony". The level 3 building removes the penalty entirely.

As for time frames, the non-bonus human cultures could have something like:
Level 1: 90 days
Level 2: 20 years?
Level 3: 30 years?
so 50 years in total. Or is this too high?

Orcs/goblins/Uruks could take 10 years in total, Sindar/Silvan could take 80 years, Noldor 100, and dwarves 100 (we can of course discuss the specifics of this as gameplay and realism allows). The cost will also have to be something that we tweak as we go along and see how it works in-game. Noldor and dwarves at least should be extremely expensive and take a very long time, since they have the biggest bonuses. For evil players, colonizing with trolls should cost even more than Noldor and Dwarves.

We can perhaps also add a restriction (not sure if it works for buildings) that if you are a human, you can't colonize with anything except Silvan elves and ONLY if you have a silvan elf in your court. Maybe if it doesn't work for buildings this limit, we can create a character flag if a human has a silvan elf in their court, and then use this character flag as part of an "OR" condition for the building - ie,

OR = {
culture = culture_silvan
has_character_flag = silvan_in_court
}

to reflect the fact that you have an elf that you can use to invite more of his race to settle somewhere in your lands. (We shouldn't let anyone except Sindar or Noldor players colonize with those, as they are very few in the 3rd Age).

But yeah, wow, this is an amazing idea! I think it's going to be huuuge work to undertake, but it would be very close to an ideal colonisation system in my view.

I'll repost on our main forum for discussion, but also feel free to add me on steam if you have that (tbbj) for easier discussion.

One issue that you need to be aware of:
There is a "dates past 10,000 AD" bug where all buildings get auto-built if not restricted by date. I'm trying to fix this for the next build via a global flag limitation that triggers on day 2, but so far you need to include a "Year = 11363" limit on all buildings otherwise they all get insta-built as the mod loads.

I also suggest that you start your own buildings document (buildings_colonisation or something).

Also - I'm not sure how much experience you have as a modder, but I wouldn't expect things to go perfectly on the first attempt! Your time-estimate of a few days might be a little optimistic Very Happy I'm happy to collaborate with you on this if you have difficulties with getting things to work as designed or if something else needs to be changed in the mod (such as our current colonisation events, which obviously will probably have to be removed).
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb - 18:28 (2014)    Post subject: Colonisation of Wilderness Decision Reply with quote

Something concerning the localisation in "Wilderness colonisation" events (and others) should be improved to me. Vanilla games and other mods have lots of [Title.GetBaseName],  [Title.GetName] commands to indicate titles and territories in the descriptions. I honestly don't know these commands and I don't know if there's some sort of list anywhere. However I think we should start using them, or our events descriptions will be always generic and unclear.  Okay
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