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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 16:26 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

Well I suppose it's already quite unrealistic to have Maglor appear in the first place and rejoin the power-politics of Middle-Earth, so adding a little more un-realism by marching across Rhun to find him is not that much more of a stretch  Confused

A request though - could you not make him married? Unless his wife is very young, she won't be able to have children, since the defines.lua has the child-bearing age at below 65 years of age. That would mean the end of the House of Feanor, unless of course he divorces his wife for a younger elf-wench, but that would just add one more sin to his long list of black deeds Okay
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Nukumnehtar
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 17:29 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

Why is it set at below 65 years of age? Most Elves were well past 100 when they had children, take Galadriel and Celeborn for example, or Elrond and Celebrían for that matter. Also forgot to mention that I gave him a son and daughter by the time the War of the Ring occurs, so the Line of Fëanor would not end so abruptly. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 18:25 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

It's a global variable, so if we don't have it at 65, then human women would be giving birth into the 70s and 80s. The only problem is for Arwen that I'm aware of, but we can make her pregnant via event if she marries Aragorn.

And how strongly do you feel about Maglor being married with kids? I feel kind of strongly that he should be an open-ended easter egg for those who want to rebuild the realms of the House of Feanor. Giving him an Avari wife and kids would... complicate... this issue Confused It's his "happy ending in the East", it's not a good base to build on if I use him as the one Noldor Prince who still has a motivation to not just sail West, but stay and build a power-base in Middle-Earth.

For those who want him to have that happy ending in the East, they can just avoid going to the Avari province and leave him far away from pretensions of power.
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 20:28 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

I see, that is quite unfortunate then that they cannot give birth past 65. Perhaps events triggered at random can be given to certain longer lived races such as Dwarves and Elves that triggers pregnancy in a married female individual past a certain age, yet still below another specific age, especially if she has not had more than two children. That might be another way around the fertility age issue.

Well his spouse would actually have Noldor culture, and a kinswoman of his through Miriel's family....so not exactly a random Avari elf-lady. Also it appears the way that Tolkien describes Maglor as the gentlest natured of the sons of Feanor, and the fact he has him at the end wandering the earth in sorrow and remorse, I just cannot really see Maglor having any sort of motivation to establish kingdoms or glory in his father's name. His throwing of the Silmaril into the Sea is symbolic of his own personal repentance and turning away from the Oath, and would likely only be motivated through the rest of his life to seek the forgiveness of the Valar by helping the oppressed peoples. At least that is an image that I and several other little-known Tolkien scholars have discussed as being Maglor's representation of casting away the Silmaril and Tolkien's choice to leave him alive. It just mostly feels counter to Tolkien's symbolism in Maglor's last tale to have him randomly reappear with motivations of war and conquest. I'd sooner see one of Elrond's sons be more motivated to re-establish a Noldor realm. But seeing as the War of the Ring is representative as the decline of the Elves and the rising glory of Men, Maglor motivated to establish a new Noldorian kingdom just seems against the nature Tolkien ends him with and out of place as far as timing in terms of the decline of the Elven kingdoms. If he had a son, his son might be otherwise motivated, but I cannot just see Maglor himself seeking war when he is clearly attempting to run from his past.
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 20:58 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

OK, as long as he has not "gone native" and married some lesser breed of Avari then I'm happy enough with that Cool

The reason I think Maglor should have a (purely optional - only if a high man or noldorin character actually goes *looking for it*) part to play is that the fate of him and the House of Feanor is unresolved. The Curse of Mandos should still apply:
 
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever. ..."[1]


The curse itself was "laid to rest" after the fall of Beleriand, but not revoked. There's potential for more epic events here from this curse, but from Maglor and only Maglor (and the House of Feanor) as all other High-Noldor are sailing West. I know that not in a million years would Tolkien have Maglor return and lead the Noldor in the 4th Age, but nor would he have ANY kind of Noldor resurgence at all in the 4th Age.  Right now in our mod elvish vassals cannot plot against their liege, and they don't have the Wilderness CB to expand either. Nor should they, they are a diminishing people and should remain static for the most part.

But I, and many others I imagine, would still like to try. So from a story-telling perspective, we re-introduce Maglor who has a very good reason to try to create a powerful Noldor realm. If this leads to high drama up-to-and-including a kinslaying war in Lindon, then to me this is just another epic chapter in the annals of Middle-Earth (I can exempt Maglor from not being able to plot against Elvish lieges, and also exempt vassals of Maglor from being able to plot against him). And I stress again - this event will not be triggered unless the player and only the player goes looking for it and even then you can decide to leave him alone.

Feanor is my favorite literary character of all time (and I've read quite a bit!) and my first post on the Paradox thread was, IIRC, about Maglor and how we would handle him. So it's not a whim, really, it's a character in the mod I feel verystrongly about.
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 21:10 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

Yeah, that sounds acceptable, so long as the AI would never get the chance to do so, it seems plausible. But question is how would a player end up playing as Maglor if he at first enters their court as a courtier?
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 21:20 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

Oh yes, definitely, I don't want to see an AI Maglor in the mod creating a Noldor empire either by any means. 

To play Maglor (who starts in the Avari court as a normal courier), if you are an independent ruler, you would go and find him, and then he would join your court if you are of the Dunedain or Noldor group and are personally leading an army in that province. You can then either grant him a landed title and re-load and play as him, or simply type "play (Maglor ID XXX)" in the console, and you switch to him.
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 22:58 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

Okay
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Fri 8 Nov - 23:31 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

Great  Okay

Re: the age of menopause, another way to fix it is to set it extremely high as the default (2000ish, or older than Arwen at least) and then give an infertility trait to all the other cultures at various ages. Humans 45, Dwarves 200, halflings 50, and orcs 50? We need to restrict orcish reproduction at least somehow, as otherwise they will breed out of control (which is fine from a lore perspective, but will lead to massive game lag). It's not high on the priority list, but I can get it done pretty easily before we release the first build to the public.
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PostPosted: Sat 9 Nov - 10:40 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

I like your idea for pregnancy Blood!
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PostPosted: Sun 10 Nov - 19:37 (2013)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

I'll try and get it done for 0.3b  Okay
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan - 20:06 (2014)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

Blood u should look at the game of thrones mod and how they did the nights watch banishment
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan - 20:16 (2014)    Post subject: A Maglor event? Reply with quote

I know how to do the Maglor event now Smile

But it's low priority, so much more needs to be done!
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PostPosted: Today at 09:40 (2017)    Post subject: A Maglor event?

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