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Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Sun 6 Jul - 17:18 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

This topic is for all of us to discuss what we think playing as an orc should be like.

I've already posted some things about this topic, but I'd really like to find out what the team as a whole thinks about it...
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Nukumnehtar
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PostPosted: Sun 6 Jul - 18:24 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

Chaotic. I don't think dynasty rule should matter as much. New rulers from other dynasty should allow the human player to continue.
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Sun 6 Jul - 19:05 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

Consider that we already have the Lonhaldar's "Fight for the throne" feature

An idea


1) Tribe instead of Dynasty
Consider the dynasty as a tribal group, and not a dynasty itself. So, a gameover for lack of heirs should never happen. This makes me think about a casual event concerning new orcs that join your tribe. So, time by time, a couple of random generated orckish dudes that join your dynasty.


I'll post new ideas as soon as they occur
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Jul - 23:32 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

I've played some more games and I think that:

- Orcs should have Elective Succession and No Crown Authority
- More provinces in Angmar, Gundabad and Misty Mountains are needed (as already stated)
- Woodland Realm is way too aggressive and seems a little bit stronger than it should
- All dwarves united in a single empire makes them too tough to beat, preventing the conquest of the most insignificant counties like Caradhras or Redhorn pass
   -> It should be possible, even if the dwarves unite to make revenge attacks later on (e.g. War of Dwarves and Orcs)
- Purging and colonizing works quite well for the player, it just needs to be more engaging and far more time-consuming
   -> On the other hand, the AI seems unwilling or unable to use it
- Consider forcing Wilderness provinces to have just one already-built holding
   -> Otherwise, after colonizing you immediately get 3-4 holdings in a province that was supposed to be empty just some months ago
- Have half-orcs been implemented?
   -> Because my orc character has 3 lustful human concubines and no children so far
-> If possible, remove the once-per-lifetime Prepared Invasions limitation

Not really crucial to orc gameplay, but important:

- Anti-blobbing mechanics are sorely needed: Gondor is an unstoppable monster and way too stable
   -> Consider severe penalties for different culture, different religion provinces
   -> That, coupled with harder purging and colonizing, should make new conquests a money- and time-sink
   -> Bad events should happen to the foreign title-holders with their capital in those provinces (getting killed while riding through the city, getting spit on by locals, having family members kidnapped, etc)
   -> These could hit their liege's prestige and vassal opinion quite hard, if there are several provinces in the same situation
   -> Create an 'over-extension' variable that is a ratio of 'core' versus 'non-core' provinces [stealing some EU4 terminology]
   -> Use it to limit the use of conquest CBs by the AI
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul - 11:27 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

That's pretty good suggestions Moridin, as always Wink

I agree for the succession law, should be elective !
In Angmar i'm not sure, i don't know how we could make more there. Gundabad and Misty Mountains deserves more territoires, i agree there. I believe that we can balance the orcs with more specific buildings, giving more units to them. A more simple way to improve them, and they'll be able to fight against dwarves and elves in a more balance way. Some buildings that will give them hundreds (not more than 300 i think) of light infantry for exemple.

For the colonisation thing, i don't think we should make it more longer, players are already lost with this mechanic like this Very Happy

Half-Orcs aren't ben implemented i think.The culture exists, but they don't have any portraits. For now, we'll let them like this, and we'll work on it later i think, no?

I like your idea to sop the blobbing Gondor. No penalties for other cultures/religions, as Gondor was a multi-cultural kingom, but i like the ratio of core/non-core provinces thing. I'll look at it in some days if you don't mind. I suppose that once you reached this limit, you should have an event who'll make some rebellious vassals, it'll limit the conquest CBs because the characters will be at wars, and it'll make the kingdom more instable. What do you think?
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul - 13:17 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

1-More provinces in northwestern Angmar (the closest to Gundabad) to be more specific. Not tonnes of them, just a few...

2-More troops is nice, as long as it does not make them OP. Perhaps we should make a thread discussing how many troops everyone should have...

3-What do you mean with "the players are already lost"? They don't like it, or they don't understand it?

4-Not urgent, I just thought they were already in, so I was a bit confused...

5-I'll agree with you on the multi-cultural, but not on the multi-religious... While they had few problems with Northmen and the like, Haradrim and Easterlings were quite a different story. Those are the ones I had in mind (mainly) when I proposed those events. And vassals would get rebellious about it because of the prestige hits they would get and because of the nobility they know and befriend being sent to those provinces of hell to end up humiliated and harmed. Not to mention the utter waste of troops and money...


P.S.: Easterlings and Haradrim need more troops. If not, they'll never pose a threat to the Big Numenorean Blob, which we know they were...
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jul - 13:05 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

I changed the succession laws of the kingdoms of Gundabad, Hillmen, Jangovars, Khundolars, Balchoths, Forochel, and of the duchy of Dunland to elective, so it'll more simulate clans/tribes mechanics i believe ! Okay

1/ At North then, around the mounts of Angmar?

2/ I agree, you can open a new thread about it Okay

3/ They don't understand it, we already changed this mechanic a lot of time and i think that they won't understand if we change the time/cost to colonise... By the way, it spends already a lot of time to colonise for exemple in Eriador, i don't think we should raise this... Any other opinion? ^^

4/ The culture is created, but there's no events/mechanics to create half-orcs ingame, and they don't have portraits for now... But we'll make them ^^

5/ Oh yeah, for easterlings/haradrim, it should be a problem, but not for "middlemen", like the men of Rhovanion of Breelanders for exemple, who accepts the rules of the dunedain.
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jul - 13:35 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

Remember that religions are not religions in this mod  Mr. Green
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jul - 13:39 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

Yeah, of course :p
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jul - 22:09 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

WARNING: point 3 is a huge wall of text!!!

Feel free to skip it and only answer it once you have the time.


1- Yes.

2- Will do xD

3- That's tricky. Maybe adding some tips on the loading screens will help?

\begin{WALL OF TEXT}

As for colonization time... It's a matter of lore vs gameplay, really. Eriador is (with the exception of a few regions) a vast, empty wilderness. You can't just colonize all of it in 50-100 years unless you are already big and rich. That solves the problem in most situations such a problem arises, I think. Who would really colonize Eriador? The Reunited Kingdom (which would be super rich), a victorious Isengard (the might of industry and all that would make it really wealthy), a victorious Mordor (nuff said) and any random duke/count the players decides to pick up (which I think is really the only issue here...).

Focusing then on the scenario "Player as duke/count plays in the region of Eriador":

This would have 3 possibilities:

- The Ring is destroyed. The victory of the Free Peoples is complete. Gondor and Arnor are reunited... or maybe not, depending on the player. Who is he? An orc, a hillman from Angmar, Rhudaur, Dunland? Lindon or Rivendell? The Shire or Bree? What will he do? Oppose the inevitable ascension of the Reunited Kingdom? Pledge his allegiance to the new King of the Dunedain and hopefully break free later? One thing is certain: he definitively won't have any spare cash to colonize in any significant proportions, which is fine from a lore point of view. I'd also argue it is fine from a gameplay point of view: I'll be so busy he won't have time to think about it...

- The Ring is destroyed but Isengard manages to crush Rohan. An obvious axis of expansion for Isengard is Eriador. Opposing it is almost imperative. You would want to unite everyone before you decided to face Saruman. I dare say you would have the time to do it: Isengard would have its plate filled with rebellious Rohan provinces and a victorious Gondor. As many as 40-50 years would go on before a clear winner emerges: Isengard (more likely) or Gondor. The player would, by then, have nearly all of Eriador, possess a respectable wealth and be a de facto Emperor. He would not submit to either winner nor would he need to. He'd have enough power to resist (but not to go on the offensive) and enough wealth to colonize. I guess (assuming a balanced economy) he could colonize Arnor in about 50-100 years and all the rest in about 50 years. Not terribly fast, I'll admit, but certainly reasonable. Afterall, he'll have other things to do (fighting Isengard or Gondor, managing disparate vassals, enhancing Crown Authoriy, events, etc), so the game won't be so boring that colonizing needs become the main aspect of his playthrough.

- Final possibility: Sauron gets the Ring and world conquest becomes his final goal. To conquer Middle Earth, he'll have to fight all of Middle Earth. War after war after war, an endless grinding that will surely take decades, decades the player can use to strenghten Eriador. As many as 100 years, I'd say. The player will have all of Eriador nicely conquered and consolidated, plus the ability to dedicate all his wealth to colonization for about 50 years. That would translate in having Arnor colonized by the time Sauron arrived. Maybe enough to hold out against the onslaught. Maybe... It doesn't sound like a dull playthrough to me, while having the advantage of not being too easy either.

Conclusion: I think that, if we allow the player to purge/colonize more than one province at once (which is already possible, I believe, if you enact the decisions and the switch the marshal/steward to another wilderness province) and make it intuitive (key point, of course), there won't be a problem of it taking 3-4 years to achieve instead of just 1-2 years. Plus, better martial/stewardship skills of the ruler and his advisors could be made to shorthen that time, through rewarding colonization events...

Note: I still mantain that newly colonized province should start with just one holding, making the density of holdings in a region a sort of population indicator. Plus, many holdings might mean more trouble to purge it, while just one holding might make the purging a really fast endeavour (like six months).

Note 2: For the above discussion about Eriador, remember that purging is borderline irrelevant because most of it is already Wilderness.

\end{WALL OF TEXT}


4- Ok.

5- Exactly. Problems with the men of Rhovanion or the men of Bree (many of them with Dunedain descendence) should only arise due to bad rulership and then, even the Dunedain would stir up. Afterall, the collapse of Arnor must have had some bad rulership as its root cause.
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jul - 22:50 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

I'll just answer your point 3 if you don't mind (well, it's the only point i can really answer by the way ^^)

One little thing to begin is that we can't colonize more than one province at a time, because the steward needs to still be in the province, so we can scope this province. if we add a province flag or something like this, it'll be a mess between the different provinces, trust me ^^

I'm mostly agree with your argues, but you forgot that colonize needs a lot of ressources, and this is a limit to a massive and quick colonisation of all al territory.
For exemple: there's exactly 98 provinces in Arnor (without the Shire ones), and in this 98 provinces, you'll needs to colonize let's say around 80. You'll needs between 200 and 300 gold to colonize, so let's say an average around 240-250. So for 80 provinces, you'll needs around 19000 gold...

But in the main time, you'll make new buildings, you'll have some other events that'll cost you some gold, you'll have to fight, you'll make some retinues, you'll have to try several times the colonisation sometimes ... And even if you gain 6 -7 PO per month, you'll needs around 2700 monthes - more than 220 years - to have enough cash to colonise 80 provinces. And that's only if you don't spend any money on other stuff, and if you success each time ^^

And by the way, you needs around half a year to colonise a province : for 80 provinces, it'll spend then around 40 years IF you success each time, and that's not the case, you've got around one chance on three colonisation to fail, so i think you needs around 60 years to colonise all the land for now, if you've got all the money at start...

And for gameplay reasons, i think we shouldn't complete a colonisation in more of one year, because if you start with a lonely province, you'll need to expend really quickly and to have at least 5-6 provinces of your culture after 10 years. If not, it should be really difficult after that...

So i can be wrong, but i think the balance is mostly correct for now (but, i can be wrong Wink)

For the numbers of holdings, the difficulty is that the lands were occupied in earlier periods. Again for Arnor (that's the main place for the wilderness provinces), if we make only one holding by province, it'll be a non-sens in earlier dates, when Arnor was powerful. So i know that seems strange to have a wilderness province with some holdings, but well... there's not buildings on them, so you'll need some times to make them "real inhabited and rich" provinces...

After, we can raise a little the time to colonise to be more "realistic", but we have to keep in mind all of this Very Happy
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Jul - 23:54 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

I'll answer without any specific order xD

Number of holdings -> I was assuming (wrongly, it seems) that you could define in the history files the number of holdings a province has for any given date. That is, for example: having 4 holdings in the Fall of Arnor scenario and, in a later date, define that the province has 1 holding and then, in the latest bookmark, say the province has 3 holdings...

Money and time -> What you are saying makes absolute sense. I should have done the math myself. I was mislead because, as Gundabad, I can raid, which allows me to somewhat ignore monthly income. That, coupled with the low province density in the Vale of the Anduin, made me think that the colonization itself was easy... I'll have to make a game as Bree or some such in order to have a different perspective of colonization. And, since we can't colonize more than one at the same time, I agree that, for gameplay reasons, one year per province may be the best. However, I do not agree with making it possible for a lonely province to colonize 5 provinces in 10 years, from a money perspective. 5 provinces = around 1250 ducats = around 10,4 monthly income from a lonely province. No matter how quickly you can conquer stuff, how will you make that much money? Raiding? Because raiding only works for bad guys, and even them would have to raid nonstop to reach 1250 ducats in 10 years. A player might do it... if not playing Bree or the like.

P.S.: Still, colonization events need to be more engaging and diverse. Afterall, having the same events while colonizing the whole of Eriador will eventually bore even the most dedicated players...
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jul - 00:01 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

Yeah, when i told you 5 choldings in 10 years, it was just something without calculation in my mind ^^

For the orcs, i believe it's more realistic too to let them colonize more quickly with help of raids, because after all, the orcs seems to be the race that multiply the most quickly. Wink

For the holdings, i can be wrong, i'm not entirely sure, but if we can remove them in the history files, we should do it, sure !

And at last, for the diversity, i'm thinking about it. It shouldn't be difficult, but will spend a lot of time to make more diversity events. You're right, it could be quickly boring to have everytime the same events by the way!
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Jul - 22:28 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

Playing as the Reunited Kingdom, I reached the conclusion that colonization is quite balanced, afterall.

As for the Wilderness/holdings issue, I might have a solution: a day 1 event at game start that destroys all but one holding in Wilderness provinces. No messing around history files, no screwing up balance in earlier bookmarks, no event spam for the player (because only Wilderness would get it)...

With this change, we could reduce colonizing costs and, to make up for the destroyed holdings, reduce new holding costs. This would allow the player to "paint the map" more easily without having his economy skyrocketing instantly. Call it a "Build outposts everywhere" policy xD   Fast but fragile expansion... Perfect for Eriador.

P.S.: Shouldn't Bree and Saralain (and any other "good" humans) have the option to bend the knee to King Elessar? It's not like Aragorn conquered them by walking in all guns blazing Razz
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Sun 20 Jul - 17:17 (2014)    Post subject: Orc gameplay discussion - what it should be like Reply with quote

What do you think?
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