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Athoen
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul - 18:12 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

I am working on what could be done with temples so far... Smile

- no interest in troops since temple vassals give no troop to liege and it can't be changed in game (okay a very tiny number, I can raise 69 troops from 3 temples in my 150 holdings, the rest would give 17k.
- no interest in money since temple vassals pay no tax to liege, and it can't be changed in game
- there is a question about abandonning technological progress (is there a thread about it ?) thus there would be no interest in technological progress (even then, archives and universities do not have to be absolutly in temples.
- In game, temples are called shrines or altar, so they could easily be simulated by a building in another holding (city or castle : by the way, churches are in towns and medieval castles often had their private chapels
- there is a issue with the temples pictures not showing correctly and breaking immersion (I tried to fix it and failed...)
Any county with a temple is seriously disadvantaged

My point is : what about abandonning temples holdings and replacing them by cities or castles ? The few buildings for temples could easily be affected to any of them.
If not I propose to make temple holdings real holdings with levies and taxes... so we can make something about them in game.

From what I have seen from the mod (and from my lore about LOTR), CK2 temple holdings just do not fit, and if we want to create many different buildings fore races and cultures (dwarves, elves, orcs, humans...) it might be more efficient to focus on cities and castles holdings. Special buildings (tombs...) can be build elsewere without problem. (by the way, each name for temple : shrine of Mahal, sacrificial altar... would become a new building in cities and/or castles

I will wait for your opinions on this subject before working agin on temple buildings (there is other work to do anyway :p)


Last edited by Athoen on Wed 30 Jul - 19:32 (2014); edited 1 time in total
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul - 18:58 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

I agree with you 100%.

I was already thinking about ditching temple holdings myself (and altering the meaning of piety, but that's another story...).
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul - 19:32 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

I think we can get rid of temple holdings without getting rid of piety :
- it is used in game
- it could "just"show the implication toward good or evil and count in many events
- In the lore, Gandalf is rewarded for doing Good after dying against the Balrog... The gods do not want to act directly but they still exist. At the end of first age, the gods act directly at the request of a human (half elf ?), it could be simulated with high piety.
We do not need temple holdings to make buildings giving piety to liege for exemple.
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul - 20:36 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

I know, that's why I said alter the meaning, not remove it.

My idea is that 'piety', in this mod, could be assumed to represent the 'arcane power' of characters. The greater the inherent might of a character, the more piety he would gain per month (Valar > Maiar > Calaquendi > Moriquendi = Numenorean = Dwarf > Dunedain > Haldadian = Southron = Easterling > Orcs). Also, objects like Rings or Silmarills (if there were any) could generate some more piety.

With this concept of 'piety', you could use it to various effects: the Three Rings giving their owners ring-specific abilities, like Galadriel's Lothlorien and Elrond's Rivendell being elven safe-havens in an era where the elves are decaying. Or Galadriel repelling a dark wind from Mirkwood (in effect, a magical standoff pitting the powers of Nenya against the still-recovering might of Sauron). I imagine that the Witch-King, at Angmar's height, might have been able of performing some of Sauron's feats of power. And so on...

'Piety' would be the "resource", so to speak, that you would spend to perform the "magical" feats above.
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul - 22:07 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

I was thinking about piety = Loyalty, what do you think?
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul - 22:11 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

There are already traits that somewhat simulate that...

How would Loyalty = Piety work?
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul - 13:24 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

If we use this system, loyalty will give opinion bonus, will give some changes in the vote for the Council of Gondor for exemple (more a character will have "loyalty", more he'll vote the proposals of the Steward). But less piety he'll have, more chance he'll have to change his side (by AI).
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul - 13:41 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

Yes, but you'll still have to have traits that increase or decrease piety. I'm failing to see the advantage here...

(However, I never gave much importance to piety in the vanilla game, so I may be forgetting a specific piety mechanism that may help your idea.)
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul - 14:06 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

To me piety is loyalty to the "religious head" (and its valours)
An orc will high piety would be uterly loyal to sauron, an gardian of ME with high piety would be doing all he can to stop the darkness.
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul - 14:40 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

Ok, but a character will always accumulate positive (or negative) piety. Does that mean that he will get more loyal (or disloyal) over time?

Lets use an elf as an example. Who's the religious head (it depends if Calaquendi, Moriquendi, etc.)? And is it possible for a good elf (i.e. nearly all of them) to become even more loyal than before?
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Redit
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul - 17:08 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

I see I'm missing a lot of developments and these things need to be decided on asap. I'll try and sum up the things I think should be done after reading almost a months worth of posts. 


A) Technology should be removed entirely. 
B) Temple holdings should be removed entirely.
C) Piety should be replaced with a Mana type system, this requires total overhaul of all traits and a decision system which can make use of the resource.
D) The building overhauls and balancing are great, especially the work on Dwarves.


I will be back in 2 weeks or so and we can get everything properly sorted out
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Aug - 07:27 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

I have already said that temples were making counties weaker, here are values about max revenues for Dwarves and the case of Moria.
As shown by Caradhras Pass, any mountain county with 3 cities can become wealthier than Moria

The proposals are what I think should be done with the temples.



By the way, so far Dwarves are wealthier than anyone in vanilla, but with Byzantium, Constantinople is easily about 150 (I currently get 250 with Constantinople and 200 with Venice as the roman emperor, my monthly income with dwarves is lesser than with roman empire). I don't think we are breaking anything with these values, moreover colonization takes some money and I am planning to add more tax income buidlings for all cultures.
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Aug - 15:00 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

Looks good for me. 

Just one thing : I believe that Moria without Mithril should have the same incomes that Moria, Khazad-Dûm was the most powerful city of the Dwarves, and even if Erebor is wealthy, i don't think that the city have more ressources than Khazad-Dûm. But that's just my opinion !  Okay
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Aug - 15:43 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

Then the simple way is to make them have the same number of castles/cities : castles and 3 cities is what will take less work.
OR we could let them be slightly differents (4/3 and 3/4) but add a 6th level of mines with income 8, available to moria only. This way Moria will be as rich but also stronger military (however, they might have some difference because of the taxe laws for different holding types).
The mines of Moria are famous afterall...

I tried to make a special mine for moria (mithril) availiable only after the event moria.2 has been triggered :
event moria.2 sets a personnal flag (that's ok) and the building can be build only with it...
potential = { has_character_flag = mithrilfound }
but it seems the buildings can't depend on character flags... tried with ROOT, FROM, never worked...
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Aug - 15:47 (2014)    Post subject: Potential interest of temple holdings Reply with quote

I like the second option : 4/3 - 3/4, and a 6th level of mines only for Moria. I can have a look to your mitrhil building. With a FROM, it should works normally?

potential = { FROM = { has_character_flag = mithrilfound } }
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