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Athoen
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Aug - 05:03 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

So far, there are :
- mumakil paddocks for (far)haradrim (no limited to province ID)
- mithril forges and mines in Moria, and jewelers in erebor for dwarves
we could add rangers of Ithillien /of the north, knights of Dol Amroth for numenoreans (not limited to province ID ? So a knight of Dol Amroth exiled in arnor could still "build" them)

Questions :
- There 2 ways (at least) to make such a building available
The mumakil way : The building can be built in baronies owned by the character (not in vassal baronies, even in the same province - by the way is it the intended result , If not, it is easy to change)
FROM = {
OR = {
trait=mumakil_raiser
trait=mumakil_groom
trait=mumakil_rider
trait=mumakil_commander
}
The mithril mines way : Buildings can be build in any holding of a province own by the character (cities included). However, it might prevent a baron with the adequate trait to build anythong on its own since he is not the holder of the province (did not check that).
ruler = { trait = mithril_found }
For building making specific units, should we keep to the mumakil way (balancing purpose ?)

Moreover, I thought the building was destroyed at the death of the character, it is not. It is just hidden and becomes available again (already built) if the character regains the needed trait .
So the reduced costs I planned for mithril mines/forges/jewelers are not justified, I'll change that
It also mean we can plan uprgrades that we will be continued with several générations (and split the already existing buildings)
For mumakil paddocks, the cost is just too important to be built. It might need to be recalculate (based upon how many troops are needed to take one mumakil done - I need the kind of troop). Anyway, I think we can split the paddocks in 5 upgrades, each adding one mumakil.

I'll go on for the dwarves, but I'll wait for feedback for the rest Smile
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Aug - 13:22 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

I did some testing and I got the surprise to see that the buildings are not always kept after the death of the main character :
- The buildings in the holdings owned by the main character are always losts
- the buildings in the baronies own by vassals are not (cities for mithril mines in Moria, or for jeweler's shop in Erebor). I need to check what happens at the death of those vassals though.

EDIT : Well the buidlings of the vassals are sometimes lost after their death. I Wonder if there is a timer or something that makes the game check if all requirements are there. Maybe if the ruler gain the trait between 2 checks, the building is not lost. No longer sure of anything...
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Aug - 09:58 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

Yeah, traits dependant buildings needs that the holder holds the corresponding trait, so the building will disappears if the heir don't have the good traits. Could be annoying, but it's also a way to "force" some players to educate their children to have them!  Okay
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 06:35 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

So I am back on reworking the costs of these buildings since they will disappear after the death of the character (they will for sure for mithirl mines and jelewer's shop since the heir will have to look after the trait.

I think that any building giving a military advantage should not have its cost reduced. Mithril forges should give only heavy infantries (with normal cost) OR tax income(with cost reduction).

However, mithril mines and jewelers shops are supposed to increase the cash of the character after he has found mithril (moria only) or gems (erebor only) during events. So if we use normal in-game values, it would take 74 years for the mines/shops to be worth the investment. Not really an immediate cash flow, and if the character dies before (possible even for a dwarf) it is a gold loss. So I propose to greatly reduce the cost/building time :


The Years show the number of years before the building actually gives money back with the highest tax law (45% -easy to get for dwarves IMO). Those are city buildings only. Forges are castle buildings.

As the event for Moria can be done once in a lifetime, Mithril mines are is much less likely to be built and the reward should higher (higer tax income, better cost reduction. I have proposed a x4 difference (twice more income, twice better reduction) but I think it is not enough for mithril mines (more than 4 times easier to find gems since it can be spammed AND there is not risk to meet the Balrog with it).
Making mithril forge give only tax income might put this right.

EDIT : we might want to add a tax income bonus to the "mithril found" and "erebor gem mines" traits to simulate an immediate cash flow.
Like +3 for gems, +7 for mithril...


Last edited by Athoen on Wed 20 Aug - 07:08 (2014); edited 1 time in total
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 07:05 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

About Mumakils :
For now the building cost makes them impossible to be built before a long time (a cost of 2000 require to already have a wealthy empire to rely upon).
So Mumakils are more wealth dependant than trait dependant IMO.

I see two ways to change that :
-split the paddocks in 5 upgrades (each giving 1 mumakil with a cost of about 400)
- recalculate the real value of one mumakil based upon the value of the number of basic troops that would stand a chance against it : I lack this data to do it Smile
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 13:37 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

Ok for the Mumakils, and ok for the post above Wink
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 15:02 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

Athoen wrote:

- recalculate the real value of one mumakil based upon the value of the number of basic troops that would stand a chance against it : I lack this data to do it Smile

So I need help before changing anything unless you want me to keep the costs as they are for now Mr. Green Wink
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 16:44 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

Hmmm... I believe that you'll needs around 40-50 men to kill 1 Mumakil. But i really never tried it !
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 17:47 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

What kind of unit ? Light infantry ? heavy ? Cavarly The cost would be completly different
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 18:08 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

Really? I have no idea Very Happy
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 18:50 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

okay so we can make tests with 10 mumakils vs 500 ligh infantry, then against 500 archers etc... or I can take an average value :p
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 19:22 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

Yep. The goal is to don't have more than 100 mumakil in all the haradrim army by the way. At the Pelennor Fields, there were no more than 30-40 of them i think. But as it's limited by trait and wealth, should be good Wink
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug - 19:56 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote

An ambition for Southron rulers with king tier title or above could be to build a Mumakil Paddock. Also, the paddock could grant a small value of monthly prestige (I mean, everyone would be like: "This guy has GODDAMN HUGE OLIPHANTS!!!" xD).
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug - 04:56 (2014)    Post subject: trait dependant buildings Reply with quote



As I suspected, the mumakil value was overestimated. We can keep the 50 knights ofr 1 mumakil value if you want.
For prestige, why not but I cannot evaluate its value, so it would be free (low value) as a reward for the trait dependant condition
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