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Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!!

 
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 00:01 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

I think that incomes around 10-20 gold monthly are way too high...

Here's a simple, yet possibly very effective, stop-gag measure:

(in the Static Modifiers file)

##########################################################################
# Settlement Base Modifiers
##########################################################################

castle = {
    tax_income = 1   #down from 4
    fort_level = 3
    build_cost_modifier = 500
    build_time_modifier = 730
    light_infantry = 60
    heavy_infantry = 150
    light_cavalry = 15
    levy_reinforce_rate = 1.25
    land_organisation = 0.2
}

city = {
    tax_income = 3   #down from 12
    fort_level = 0
    light_infantry = 75
    archers = 40
    build_cost_modifier = 500
    build_time_modifier = 730
    land_organisation = 0.2
}

temple = {
    tax_income = 2   #down from 8
    heavy_infantry = 45
    light_infantry = 45
    archers = 40
    build_cost_modifier = 500
    build_time_modifier = 730
    levy_reinforce_rate = 0.25
    land_organisation = 0.2
}

trade_post = {
    tax_income = 1.5   #down from 6
    fort_level = 0
    levy_size = 0
    light_infantry = 50
    archers = 50
    build_cost_modifier = 150
    build_time_modifier = 365
    land_organisation = 0.2
}

family_palace = {
    tax_income = 2.5   #down from 10
    fort_level = 0
    light_infantry = 40
    archers = 10
    galleys = 25
    levy_reinforce_rate = 1.25
    land_organisation = 0.2
}

tribal = {
    tax_income = 0.5
    fort_level = 1
    light_infantry = 100
    heavy_infantry = 5
    archers = 20
    levy_reinforce_rate = 1.5
    land_organisation = 0.2
}




Note that, given the implementation of buildings, this does not equate to a flat 75% income reduction. Also, even with the current Wilderness maluses not working, those wilderness provinces won't be such a valuable commodity as they currently are. Countries shouldn't profit from Wilderness at all, they should be a financial drain until properly colonized...
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Redit
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 00:28 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

You are right, as with your prestige suggestion, we'll have to look at it more though, not simply make an arbitrary change like this
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 01:45 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

Redit wrote:

You are right, as with your prestige suggestion, we'll have to look at it more though, not simply make an arbitrary change like this


It's not really that arbitrary... Unlike vanilla, mercenaries are not that big of a money sink and the game pace is supposed to be slower.

That doesn't mean I want this particular proposal rushed into the mod at lightspeed. I stand by my proposal, but I also think it should not be done until the building startup events are fully fleshed-out for most regions of Middle-Earth.
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 02:22 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

The buildings I added took into account and anticipated the loss of the bonus given by technology, we should get rid of this bonus before modifying anything more.

There is more gold but also more costs : colinizing and some building event do cost quite some money.
Some unique buildings are very costly (though this balancing is specifically intended for dwarves who are supposed to have the possibility to drown under gold..

Human buildings can also go prety high in tax income if several conditions are met (port city + river + plains). We might want to lower this after testing : I think there can be human provinces richer than moria.

EDIT in vanilla with byzantium I often got 10-20 gold a month, the value itself does not shock me, but it should not be reached easily.
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 02:55 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

I checked this in game (even if i my built Arthedain got a few more buildings at start and not gondor because I made some test with annuminas and Fornost
Arthedain has indeed more tax income than the king of moria... (who has a lot of buildings at start in my built), so there is something to rebalance there.

However in some of my vanilla CK2 saves :
HRE : +47 gold / month
Abassid +64
Byzantium (early save) : +22

The value of 20 gold per month is not shocking by itself, and one reason we can reach high value is that characters can have a huge domain in MEP (Numenorean Kings get many desmene size bonus, allowing them many provinces with full tax income) : The king of Arthedain can have a desmene about 15/19 at start ! So 3 times more income than in vanilla., with some buildings giving a notable tax income (roads, higways, hall of Kings, prancing pony)

As a rebalance of my work adding buildings to capitals, we might want to give less holding to the other provinces (one real capital and almost nothing around).
May be just one castle, or one castle and one city (often the capital castle and 2 cities). Big work so let's not rush things, but my work WILL give a notable tax income boost at start.
EDIT : If as I believe the wealth of the arthedain/gondorian Kings are caused by their huge desmene, altering their vassal will do little. One way to deal it would be to add wilderness provinces in duchies like fornost/ annuminas. So going further than what I proposed before.

EDIT : Removed income bonus from technology (-25% tax for Arthedain at start as exemple)


Last edited by Athoen on Fri 5 Dec - 07:43 (2014); edited 1 time in total
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 06:57 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

Wilderness building online : you will see it does not change a lot of things for the king of arthedain : his income comes from his own huge desmene, not from his vassal.
One way to reduce that would be to decrease the desmene size bonus (not more than +1 for one artifact ?)
This also depends on the kind of game experience we want to create : for now we have something with huge bonuses almost everywhere, so this is rather coherent I would say.
If we change that, this is more like vanilla
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 08:11 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

Okay, so here is some testing comparison as Arthedain between FoA and Kin strife (not done on purpose but my work on Arthedain allowed this to be available)

FoA : All provinces are colonized (as before)
Income : 22-23
Troops : 15000

Kin Strife : Only the capitals (duchy and kindgom capitals) are arnorian/dunedain (almost all of them were wilderness before)
Income : 12.66
Troops : 7500

it might be a possibility for balancing income and troops (and help angmar having a chance to win)
EDIT : After a few tests, it seems that Arthedain has little chance to win against Angmar with this

Question : How much were those areas populated anyway ? Castles an towns everywhere as we have at FoA or a few strong cities isolated with nature and wilderness around them ?
From what I read, the second would be more immersive and lorelike. It would also slow down the pace.

EDIT : I just read that gondorians and arnorians have som tx bonus as racial modifier. This is redundant with my work on buildings : Numenorean cultures have access to more economic buildings and have more of them builtat start. Shouldn't we remove the racial bonus on tax ?
On the relased built, I think you will see the income of gondor is huge. No need to give it more money Wink
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 12:34 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

I have the feeling (from reading the books) that Arthedain is a collection of sparsely populated but heavily fortified borders and a more urban population in the inner realm (Duchies of Amnuminas [this one already in decline...], Fornost and (?)Bree). The rest would be a mix of wilderness and a few provinces with 1 castle and 1 city (which could be the duchies' capitals...). That's the feeling I get from it, at least...

Afterall, when the Witch-King took Fornost, Arthedain pretty much died, even though there were many lands to the south that didn't even see an orc, like the Shire...
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 13:26 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

Moridin997 wrote:
The rest would be a mix of wilderness and a few provinces with 1 castle and 1 city (which could be the duchies' capitals...).


I agree with the general idea but not with this number : I played a bit at Kin strife with Arthedain and Angmar : at this time only the duchy capitals are colonized in Arthedain (with lvl 2 buildings) the rest is wilderness.

And it seems Arthedain is already weaker than angmar (IF the witch king it leading however, I got him killed and that changed the tide)

So for balancing I would not weaken Arthedain more than what it is now at the time of the Kin Strife (1 colonized province with lvl 2-3 buildings per duchy, often with 3 holdings -did not count that-)

Morindin, what about you having a look at it and doing some testing so we can speak about it ?
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 13:51 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

Since the number of holdings I proposed were explicitly stated to be due to the feeling the books transmit; that number is obviously quite inexact and therefore open to discussion.

The thing is, Arthedain should be weaker than Angmar. The problem is that the events calling the Elves to the aid of the Dunedain either aren't working or haven't been fully implemented. Arthedain+Lindon+Rivendell should be able to hold back Angmar rather easily...

I'll try to get some time to do more prolonged tests but, with university workload, I really can't make any promisses...
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 14:03 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

The weaker we make Arthedain, the harder balancing will be, this is why I am being cautious.
Never saw the event calling Lindo and Rivendell, but I never really played that part of the scenario... and the 3 armies would take some time to regroup, meanwhile Angmar has plenty enough time to deal with them separatly (IA sucks badly for regrouping armies).
Following the lore too much will make it unplayable I think.

Anyway, I suppose this will take some time to think about everything.

Moreover, doing this king of thing for Arnor might require to do it with Gondor too... We are speaking about a major rebalancing of income and troops for the numenorean part.
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 14:08 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

Athoen wrote:

The weaker we make Arthedain, the harder balancing will be, this is why I am being cautious.
Never saw the event calling Lindo and Rivendell, but I never really played that part of the scenario... and the 3 armies would take some time to regroup, meanwhile Angmar has plenty enough time to deal with them separatly (IA sucks badly for regrouping armies).
Following the lore too much will make it unplayable I think.

Anyway, I suppose this will take some time to think about everything.




Lonhaldar, can you confirm if the event exists, or am I imagining things? Very Happy

And yes, I agree, Arthedain shouldn't be too weak. It just shouldn't be too close to Angmar. There's a new AAR on the forums (Mists of Evendim) where the player roflstomps Angmar's army (with the Witch-King leading it) with a 7:1 casualty ratio...

Since players as Arthedain likely want to feel the challenge of resisting Angmar and players as Angmar will conquer Arthedain no matter what, I'd say we shouldn't be too afraid to slightly alter the current balance of power...

EDIT: It wasn't 7:1, it was 5:1, but still...
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Athoen
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 15:43 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

Kin strife start date : 30000 Angmarim vs 7500 men of Arthedain. Easy victory for Angmar.
That is of course 4 to 1

Of course Angmar must be stronger than Arthedain, it is no longer at start of FOA and we must rebalance it but what exists at kin strife date is severe. However, it might means we no longer need extra event troop for angmar... That would be nice.
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Moridin997
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PostPosted: Fri 5 Dec - 16:13 (2014)    Post subject: Arda is drowning under a sea of gold!!! Reply with quote

True, event troops are an evil that should be removed when no longer necessary...
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