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Redit
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PostPosted: Tue 9 Apr - 01:59 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Here's a map you can paint cultures and religion onto and then repost, I'd like to know what you think and see different views on this, and we can compare whose is best, I don't know enough to make an entry however   Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue 9 Apr - 01:59 (2013)    Post subject: Publicité

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
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Redit
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PostPosted: Tue 9 Apr - 02:21 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

In spite of myself heres a rough version
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Nukumnehtar
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PostPosted: Tue 9 Apr - 04:42 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Well there will likely be different cultures for different eras. I plan on doing something quite interesting with the Haldadian peoples (Dunlendings, Fisher-folk, Calendings, Oathbreakers, Men of Minhiriath, etc.) of which I will base off of Celtic cultures. For the Gondorian middle men I plan on using high German, Gothic for the ancient northmen, Norse/Swedish for Bardings, Frankish for Men of Mirkwood. For the Slaves of Mordor around Nurn I plan on using Slavic names (Slavic being a fine fit). Greco-Latin fused with Elvish and Numenorian for Harondorians. Phoenician and Semitic names for Haradrim. Numenorian obviously for Umbar. Baltic for the Angmarim and related people. Balchoth will be based on Hungarian names. Dacian/Thracian for the men on the northern border of Mordor. Avar/Scythian/Sarmatian for Wainriders. Hittite and Armenian for the men of Khand. And Siberian-Ugric names for the Easterlings near the Sea of Rhun. Perhaps Basque/Iberian for Men of Andrast. I think that should cover most/all of diversity for Men. The Druedain were a part of the Edain, having lived in Beleriand near the House of Haleth, some returning to Eriador while others to Numenor where it seems most left after contact with the Mainland was reestablished. Ghan-buri-ghan does seem somewhat Numenorian in look and sound, but I am unsure what language to model them after. As for their looks, they have often been described as Neanderthal like, of which they quite possibly were modeled after. But as far as grouping goes, I will probably put the Druedain in an Edain grouping along with the other Three Houses.
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Redit
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PostPosted: Tue 9 Apr - 07:41 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

The naming is interesting, but the map is key right now, and knowing where to place what would help a great deal, it takes only a few minutes to put them in paint  Wink
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PostPosted: Tue 9 Apr - 08:40 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

For me, during the War of the Ring, it should look like that:
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Nukumnehtar
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PostPosted: Tue 9 Apr - 17:26 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Redit wrote:

The naming is interesting, but the map is key right now, and knowing where to place what would help a great deal, it takes only a few minutes to put them in paint  Wink
Just place what culture you like wherever you want for now, and if I need to make a change later on I will give my reasons why. Between work, life, and character culture relation I barely have any opportunity to open photoshop and think about the map which changes over time.

I do have a couple of suggestions to add for the Dwarves however: Thror's mines (Thror's Coombe in lotro I think) in Dunland in the foothills of the Misty Mountains. Gundabad was once a holy site for Dwarves, being the place where Durin awoke alone. And there also were a couple of halls in the Grey Mountains where the House of Durin ruled for a while. And don't forget the Iron Hills. I have proper Khuzdul names for all of these, but I will add them as cultural names when I focus on the Dwarves.
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PostPosted: Tue 9 Apr - 23:22 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Just for current start date, not any other dates  Razz
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jul - 18:00 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Since I'm working on Gondor counts at the moment, this would be my suggestion for Gondor (and Dunedain of the North, for good meaure).

((Edit.. Hmm.... can't seem to get the map uploaded! Ah well, text descriptions work too, I mostly filled in Gondor anyways and not the whole map))

The provinces of Anorien, Lebennin, and Belfalas are mostly "Gondorian", which I take to mean the Dunedain of the South. Ideally I'd like a subcategory for the Princely Houses of a longer lived subculture, like possibly Numenorean (Denethor II and Faramir both for example were remarked to be almost "Numenorean"). But fair enough, I don't have the dynastic information at hand, but if the later Stewards didn't live to be much more than 120 years old, then Gondorian culture works for them.

Once we get further inland and away from the coasts (where the numenoreans mostly settled) we have mixed-Gondorian, and then for all intents and purposes woodsmen/hillmen in the further regions. As I recall from the books, they mostly sent companies of archers and not mail-clad warriors, so it would be fair to give them a little less "advanced" culture.

On the Dunedain of the North, I would estimate that they were the majority in a handful of provinces (but only being majority because virtually no one else lived there). I added in single provinces for the remnants of Cardolan and Rhudaur, just for good measure.

I generally agree almost completely with your map also Lonhaldar, except on 2 points Smile

The realm of Lindon should be split into Noldor and Sindar cultures. I can't remember if it's from Tolkien or some other source material (like MERP) but basically the northern side was majority Noldor, and the southern side majority Sindar. There definitely needs to be a Sindar presence, at least, because Cirdan and his mariners are as Sindar as one can get, and the entire southern part of Lindon was originally settled by wood-elves in Beleriand as well and that part of Beleriand was never destroyed as we can see.

Re: Black Numenoreans, I think that it was stated somewhere that they were a greatly diminished people by the late 3rd age. They should perhaps be the majority of Umbar (if we include the Corsairs in the Black Numenorean group, as it is assumed they would have intermarried) and maybe 1-2 other "rich" provinces, but population wise of the Harad region I don't think they are more than 10%, if that. When it comes to making the ruling characters, it might make sense to have something like 75% of the counts as Corsairs or Black Numenoreans in the Umbar region to reflect that they were the ruling caste (at least in that one area), but the vast majority of the provinces themselves I think should be in the Southron/Haradrim grouping.

Edit again:

Oh, and I also think everything east of the Anduin should not be Gondorian either. It is stated that they have basically fled Ithilien, and that the Rangers are only the descendants of those who *used* to live there. Ithilien was abandoned once Sauron returned, IIRC. Maybe a small sliver of Gondorian territory running from Cair Andros to the Rangers' base at Henneth Anum, but the rest is probably more accurately populated by orcs. Would also make gameplay easier, as we don't want Sauron spending a year besieging provinces in Ithilien, they should probably already be under his control (technically they should be abandoned and de-populated no-man's-land, but that would be difficult to implement in CK II engine, I suppose).

But yes, just my 2 cents Smile
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Chris93
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jul - 18:14 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

I totally agree with you Blood  Okay
PS: I've just noticed it looking at the map...isn't Rhun planned or that map was just a WIP? 
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Nukumnehtar
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jul - 23:08 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Blood Royal wrote:

Since I'm working on Gondor counts at the moment, this would be my suggestion for Gondor (and Dunedain of the North, for good meaure).

((Edit.. Hmm.... can't seem to get the map uploaded! Ah well, text descriptions work too, I mostly filled in Gondor anyways and not the whole map))

The provinces of Anorien, Lebennin, and Belfalas are mostly "Gondorian", which I take to mean the Dunedain of the South. Ideally I'd like a subcategory for the Princely Houses of a longer lived subculture, like possibly Numenorean (Denethor II and Faramir both for example were remarked to be almost "Numenorean"). But fair enough, I don't have the dynastic information at hand, but if the later Stewards didn't live to be much more than 120 years old, then Gondorian culture works for them.

Once we get further inland and away from the coasts (where the numenoreans mostly settled) we have mixed-Gondorian, and then for all intents and purposes woodsmen/hillmen in the further regions. As I recall from the books, they mostly sent companies of archers and not mail-clad warriors, so it would be fair to give them a little less "advanced" culture.

On the Dunedain of the North, I would estimate that they were the majority in a handful of provinces (but only being majority because virtually no one else lived there). I added in single provinces for the remnants of Cardolan and Rhudaur, just for good measure.

I generally agree almost completely with your map also Lonhaldar, except on 2 points Smile

The realm of Lindon should be split into Noldor and Sindar cultures. I can't remember if it's from Tolkien or some other source material (like MERP) but basically the northern side was majority Noldor, and the southern side majority Sindar. There definitely needs to be a Sindar presence, at least, because Cirdan and his mariners are as Sindar as one can get, and the entire southern part of Lindon was originally settled by wood-elves in Beleriand as well and that part of Beleriand was never destroyed as we can see.

Re: Black Numenoreans, I think that it was stated somewhere that they were a greatly diminished people by the late 3rd age. They should perhaps be the majority of Umbar (if we include the Corsairs in the Black Numenorean group, as it is assumed they would have intermarried) and maybe 1-2 other "rich" provinces, but population wise of the Harad region I don't think they are more than 10%, if that. When it comes to making the ruling characters, it might make sense to have something like 75% of the counts as Corsairs or Black Numenoreans in the Umbar region to reflect that they were the ruling caste (at least in that one area), but the vast majority of the provinces themselves I think should be in the Southron/Haradrim grouping.

Edit again:

Oh, and I also think everything east of the Anduin should not be Gondorian either. It is stated that they have basically fled Ithilien, and that the Rangers are only the descendants of those who *used* to live there. Ithilien was abandoned once Sauron returned, IIRC. Maybe a small sliver of Gondorian territory running from Cair Andros to the Rangers' base at Henneth Anum, but the rest is probably more accurately populated by orcs. Would also make gameplay easier, as we don't want Sauron spending a year besieging provinces in Ithilien, they should probably already be under his control (technically they should be abandoned and de-populated no-man's-land, but that would be difficult to implement in CK II engine, I suppose).

But yes, just my 2 cents Smile
Hold off for now, and I've just listed a few counts for Gondor. I've plans for province cultures in Gondor already, so please hold off adding counts until we really need them, right now assigning provinces to the duchy or king level will suffice until the map is completed, as some provinces such as Osgiliath, Minas Ithil and Edhellond seem to be missing.

What you could do right now is create some county and duchy level placeholders for Orc rulers of Mordor and Moria provinces set during the War of the Ring Era. I will finish with Gondor soon and assign cultures to provinces, and then you can continue on your Gondorian count creation.
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Blood Royal
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jul - 12:09 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Nukumnehtar wrote:
Hold off for now, and I've just listed a few counts for Gondor. I've plans for province cultures in Gondor already, so please hold off adding counts until we really need them, right now assigning provinces to the duchy or king level will suffice until the map is completed, as some provinces such as Osgiliath, Minas Ithil and Edhellond seem to be missing.

What you could do right now is create some county and duchy level placeholders for Orc rulers of Mordor and Moria provinces set during the War of the Ring Era. I will finish with Gondor soon and assign cultures to provinces, and then you can continue on your Gondorian count creation.
Sure, I'd be happy to do some Orc placeholder rulers of Mordor and Moria. I finally got the mod to work with Lonhaldar's help, something about cultures not having "default" portraits when you don't have the DLC portrait packs, thus leading to a crash.

If you give me clear instructions I can get it done quite fast, I think.

1) Orc first names I can generally make up myself, I think.

2) Orc dynasty names? How would you like those?

Option one is simply "of Udun", "of Cirith Ungol", etc, basically just based on the province names.

Option two would work if the mod was anglicized, ie, "Blood-Axe", "Elf-Cleaver", etc but this probably won't fit into the mod style as we are doing local languages for Gondor and the Elves (and if my Sindarin syntax is poor, my Black Speech of Mordor is even worse!)

Option three is you give me a list of Orc Dynasty names and likely provinces for the counts/dukes, and I do the work of coding it.

Another thing we could do - though I'm not sure if it'll work - is to make the 9 Nazgul in Mordor rulers of the provinces. Obviously the Witch King gets Minas Morgul, but there's no reason why the other's shouldn't be counts, is there? Or do you plan on giving them fortresses and make them Barons instead?

Also:

I can see that the character ID's for Orcs is 11001-12000. Should I start at 11001?
What orc Dynasty ranges are available?
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Lonhaldar
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jul - 17:31 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

I believe that Nazgul are all in Minas Morgul, under the leadership of the Witch-King. Maybe, one or two of them could be in Dol Guldur, oar at Black Gate, but not rulers in Mordor territories!
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jul - 17:40 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

I'd make them courtiers of the Witch-King (and maybe one of them leader in Dol Guldur) . What is very important to me is that they MUST have a very big Martial level (18-20) so that they're always used as generals by the player and the AI and do not remain mere courtiers.
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Jul - 10:57 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Another thing we can do is potentially make some of the Nazgul leaders of "Holy Orders", that only Mordor/Sauron can call upon in "Holy Wars".

Playtesting will show whether it is needed, but having 8 Nazgul hosts of around 2k maybe that can be bought for maybe 1 piece of gold should at least ensure that Mordor uses the Nazgul to proper effect. Just a suggestion, however, but this is from the wiki:

"They mostly build holdings in the holy lands, but they can also build in other places, most of the time near muslim borders and they only build castles and temples. After you win the crusade or a holy war and take the land, they might ask you to build their castles in the land. If you accept it, you'll gain piety and pope's opinion of you will be a bit more positive. (Even there are no more holding slots left, if accepted, they will create new slots and build there.)

If you are playing as a Catholic ruler, you can hire them with piety, and when you're defending against infidels, you won't have any maintenance cost at all. But should you remember that they will only fight against heretics and infidels (and rebels as well)."

Seems to fit quite well with the Nazgul being personal representatives of Sauron in my mind at least, and mostly used for Holy Wars - aka, massive invasions of the West Smile
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Jul - 15:17 (2013)    Post subject: Culture and Religion Painting Reply with quote

Nuku, have you made up your mind on the provincial cultures in the Harad/Umbar/Bellakar region?

It seems wrong to me somehow to give entire regions to the Black Numenoreans. I know we don't have a lot of information on them, but what I've been able to find is this:

"...some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men."
― "The Window on the West", The Lord of the Rings

"After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth..."
― "Appendix A" of The Lord of the Rings

Now obviously they were still around in the 3rd age, and in 1015 they apparently led an army of Haradrim against Gondor:

"...the Men of Harad, led by the lords that had been driven from Umbar, came up with great power against that stronghold..."
"Appendix A" of The Lord of the Rings

The mouth of Sauron was also a Black Numenorean, so they still existed. But to make entire regions majority "Black Numenorean" culture I think is a bit much. Personally I would only give them one or two provinces, if even that. Umbar could justifiably be called Black Numenorean in *culture*, since one could argue that the Corsairs fleeing the kinstrife in Gondor *became* Black Numenoreans as they allied with Sauron.

It might just be me, but generally I would like to see much fewer Gondorian/Dunedain/Black Numenorean majority provinces across the map and dynasties in the late 3rd age, but then give those characters that ARE that "last remnant of the kings of men" culture relatively larger bonuses.

What do you think?
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